Australian Gamer Studio Tour :: A visit to Pandemic Studios

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A visit to Pandemic Studios

PAGE 1 (About Pandemic) : PAGE 2 (Interview with John Passfieldn and Dylan Miklashek)��

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Yug: So why are you in Australia? What�s the connection here?

John Passfield:We�ve got Andrew and Josh who were the original founders of Pandemic in the US, and of the original twelve people who founded the company, three were from Australia, so there�s a really strong group, a quarter of the company were Aussies.

They stayed over there to do a game: Dark Reign 2, and when they came back here and they said �Well, you�re coming back here might as well start a game studio�, so that�s how it happened.

Yug: What about the games, is there any input from the US offices on Destroy All Humans 2?

John: Yeah, we share stuff, I mean Tom is our lead or senior writer, he�s in our LA office, so he writes a lot. The structure we have in our team is kind of interesting because it�s different to the other companies. We had more of a designer and an implementer, to implement the designers work. The way we work here is more of a collaborative process to the way we do things. So they�ll actually design a site in the game, and write the dialogue here, and then Tom will go over it and punch it up, make it funnier or whatever. Or they say "I�m busy, I don�t have time" and he�ll write the dialogue as well. Being a designer here is actually really cool, because you actually get to design, which doesn�t happen in every company.

Rather than just being given a spec, a level, and you place your props here. So it�s really kind of cool. We have some designers here, and some of them design and write stuff. We share with the writer in the US, [to Dylan] I don�t think you�ve used Tom at all, but they use him a lot in the US on all their projects as well.

Yug: Is there ever a problem with continuity when you�ve got several different people in different countries working on the same project?

John: Not really, he can switch gears, and as long as we have the same group of writers going over it, he can always make it funny.

One thing we did was to write the vision document for the game [Destroy All Humans 2] then give it to Tom, and said �make it funny�, because part of the vision of the game is the humour. So he went though and just put in some funny lines and stuff, so it was something in our vision document that it was our vision of the game to be funny.

In terms of art usage for DAH2 there�s the Australian designers, and designers came out to help out at the end of the project, and so there�s a kind of cross helping. It�s not full on, but it�s there. It�s actually pretty good and [to Dylan] you�ll be doing some of that further down the track.

Dylan Miklashek: Yeah, we hope to use some of the engine work and things that they�ve done over there, and bouncing ideas off them. Obviously they�ll have final sign off, but they like to try to give us as much autonomy as possible. Because we�re the ones that have to deal with the day to day, so they empower us for the most part to do what we need to do.

Matt: People work better making their own decisions.

Dylan: Exactly. One of the other things here that I�ve noticed is it's great working with Andrew and Josh and Greg (the Director of Production). With these guys it�s really a case of "these are suggestions and if you don�t like the suggestion you don�t have to follow it".

John: Even with THQ we've had a good relationship with those guys. Derek [from THQ], he's in the office all the time, and it's nice having that contact as a developer. And again, with the video conferencing we get to see the guys all the time, talk with them, so there's never any issue that builds up. Everything is resolved really quickly.

Matt: Is there any friendly rivalry, anything like that?

John: I'd say there would be. I mean one of developers has a cap that says BGE, I think it is: Best Game Ever. And you know the great thing about Pandemic and even Bioware is there's a great sense of humility within the company from the top. Like with Ray and Greg, so it's not like we're going to say we make the best games and that's it. It's like "we can do better" and so we'll try and do better. So there's a sense that each team is trying to do the best game ever. We try to get the highest group rating and the best game ever. And when we finish it we look at it and go "So what didn't we hit" and next time we'll make a better game again. And you get that from the very top. There's not this sense of say "we're the best in the industry", it's "guys let's be humble and try to be the best".

Dylan: There's two different things. There's internal and externally, to the rest of the game world. I think that there is a certain level of humility. People are pretty good about that at Bioware and Pandemic. Within the internal there's definitely a little bit of competition there, as there is in any company that has multiple teams. But at the end of the day, they help support each other. I kind of like to think about it like the extreme sports, what they've turned into. Especially with BMX and Skateboarding, things like that. There's this real camaraderie, and they all want each other to do their best and nail their tricks, and when they do, they're all hugging and holding hands, and when somebody wins they're all saying congratulations.

Matt: Because they know they'll win the next round.

Dylan: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And they don't even care that they won. They are so happy that they did their run and they did all their tricks and it all came together and they're just so happy to have done it and to be around their buddies when they do it. And their buddies are just as happy about them succeeding as they are about succeeding themselves.

So that's really changed a lot. Most sports are about winning. You hate the competition; you don't hang out with them. There's this really intense competitiveness. I think that within Pandemic, Bioware, and other Brisbane studios there's this kind of "Well we're going to make it as good, if not better than what you did, but we're here to support and help where we can".

John: There's respect too. I mean the guys are huge fans of Bioware games. Huge fans of stuff like Star Wars Battlefront and it's great that we get to talk to those people as well. For example, we just had the producer of Dragon Age from Bioware in last week and he came to the office and gave us a presentation of what they're doing, all extremely cool stuff. And we actually had a video conference with the guys from Bioware about some stuff for Destroy All Humans, that we'd done for the sequel. We got to pick their brains about how you do it and why you do it this way and stuff. So that was cool. They were happy to share information with us, which normally you wouldn't get, but they want to see us do well. And that also ties in with the way the company works. There's a bonus system for individuals, with shares in the company so we all do well off royalties if the game does well.

Dylan: That's another example between the individual and as a company. It's very much "Hey, it is about your individual performance, it's about the individual team�s performance, it's also about us as a company". So theres got to be a balance there, right? They know that if they help us, one day it's going to come around. For example, if we were thinking about using one engine from the LA office for our game. Well, we've already had a look at it, and added a bunch of features to it, and we're going to send it back to them so they can use that as well. It really works out well that way. But at the end of the day there's going to be that competitiveness that our game got a better review, or sold more units.

John: And I think it's good, because you do actually put lots into it. And I know working as an individual in a previous company, other places you can only see what you're doing, and it might be only one or two projects. Now we're seeing 7 or 8 projects in development. And if the guys have a really cool concept we can use that in our game, and have it ready to go. So it's kind of like E3 every week when we talk about what's happening, or every fortnight when we do our catch ups with every project and have a meeting by video conference so we know what's going on.

Matt: A small and very limited E3. Kind of like.... E3.

John: And the thing with the whole incentive stuff again is that if Dragon Age does extremely well, we actually benefit financially out of that. So that's a big plus. That's a nice incentive to make sure the other guys do well. It�s the whole philosophy behind Bioware/Pandemic, coming together and making them shareholders.

Dylan: And the second thing is, they don't drive Ferraris. You know, Josh and Andrew DON'T drive Ferraris, they're not super flashy, they're not all Hollywood or something. �They're in the business because they love making games. They're not in it because of the quick cash, or because of power, or because you get some fame or notoriety associated with being a successful studio. I mean, games are the entertainment business, right?

Matt: There are worse things to do for a living, really.

Dylan: Exactly. It was also great to meet Ray and Greg, they're the founders [of Bioware] and they're doctors.

Matt: Really?

Dylan: Yeah, yeah, like they've even got their license and everything, passed intern, they were practicing as medical doctors. Then they said "You know what? Let's make video games."

John: They love video games.

Dylan: So they got into medical software first. They came from that, that's why it's called "Bioware", and then they finally achieved what they wanted to do and left the medical industry for video games.

Matt: That's great!

John: I'm not sure if one or both of them still have their medical license. They might not have renewed it recently. I'm not sure in Canada if you have to renew it.

Dylan: It would be found though for the employees. "Oh, I'm not feeling well." "Well, the best thing you can do is come in."

Matt: Yeah. "I've got a doctor's certificate" "Well, I've got one too."

Dylan: "I want a second opinion; get your ass in here. We'll check it out."

Matt: I actually wanted to talk about the Next Gen stuff, because that's what a lot of our readers would be interested in . Are you looking at these consoles? PS3, Xbox 360, Wii?

John: Well, right now we're really focusing on getting Destroy All Humans 2 to be the most amazing game out there.

Dylan: Obviously next gen is going to be the future, so obviously we're going to be involved in that, no matter what. And it doesn't matter if you're not on that, because you can succeed without it. Look at the life of the PS1. It took a long time to die, and a lot of people made a lot of money by continuing to come out of PS1 on a PS2 development for about 4 or 5 years, so...

Matt: Yeah, and some of the stuff late in a generation of a console is almost as impressive as the stuff for the start of a new gen.

Dylan: Yeah, you had a chance to really get into your tools and your engines. Some of that stuff isn't as fun or as exciting. But I think all we want to do in this studio is to make great games period. So I think in that respect we're kind of open to whatever. If we come up with a brilliant DS concept, you know, we'd consider doing it. We'd look at what we can do, what else is on the table, licenses, non licenses... But at the end of the day it's just whatever people get really excited about, and what we can do an amazing job on and deliver a product that people go "Wow, this is a best-of."

Matt: I love the fact that you guys are so into the humour in the game. Like some of my favourite games, even though they're not always the BEST games, are some of the ones by Planet Moon. Armed and Dangerous, for example.

John: Yeah, we actually borrowed, or were inspired for a weapon from that game for our game.

Matt: Which one, the meteor?

John: No... It's a giant sand worm that comes up and eats people.

Matt: Oh, the shark gun.

Dylan: Which is also sci-fi from Dune, of course, and Tremors.

John: You can PK the ball around and put it near people to eat. It's great. There's some good stuff, and they all react differently, so there's some fun there. Anyway, back to next gen.

Dylan:We're just keeping it wide open, and we're just going to make great games on whatever consoles are available.

John: Yeah, definitely.

Dylan: The most important thing is get the Dev Machines out. Because what happens towards the end of the development cycle is that they're focused on making consumer machines. So they're getting people these dev stations that are still pretty flaky and still pretty young. And they just sort of say "You know what? No more development stations. We're putting all of our manpower into making consumer units and getting those out, and then maybe in March, April, you can get dev stations again." Even 360, you get those first products that come out with the release of the product but it's not really the kickass games. I mean, look at Halo. Even Halo's not out on the 360, right?

Matt: Yeah, true. I always did wonder why with the Gamecube there was no Mario at launch.

John: The good thing with the Wii now is that it is just a Gamecube and a half. They HAVE got a solid platform, even games that got into development late like the new Zelda game, have got some good stuff in it.

Dylan:Which is an interesting approach. Rather than re-engineering it and making the most incredible piece of hardware... Coz the PS3, on paper is an incredible piece of hardware, and everyone is excited about digging in and making it sing, but you know, it's going to take work. particularly when you don't know the architecture.

John: I always used that analogy that the Infocom games and point and click adventures had some really amazing stuff behind the scenes, where the characters would walk around through rooms and you know, if you had a murder mystery you'd have characters walk through rooms, you could talk to them and they'd remember stuff you said. And you go to sort of Kings Quest type, and it was really simple, and lost all that in the transition.

So there's lots of stuff that can be done, but hasn't been done. But maybe that's what we've done with all the shiny graphics and that. But yeah, you're right. People saw the graphics on these new Kings Quest games and were hooked by that.

Dylan: Yeah, it's a tough one. It's so much fun to focus on the AI, but is the consumer ready for it?

John: One thing I've learned is that games that have combat in them, you can have the most intelligent enemies, but you'll see it for a second before you gib them, most of the time.

Dylan: Yeah "We put 2 years development into that".

John: You've got to watch what they do, they look around and smell the flowers, and they put a little flower pot over there.

Matt: Look! He's thinking about his family.

Dylan: Yeah, we've got this whole intelligence there. He picked that flower instead of this one because of his personality. It was a four leaf clover instead of a three leaf one.

I think what we're trying to do is to be innovative and create games that people enjoy making. So it sort of goes full circle as I was saying, and you know, who knows what platform.

John: One of the things, too, when you're talking about the rivalry stuff; one of the things we try to think about is that our competition is people like Blizzard and Valve. So we really have that bar right at the top.

We ran out of tape at this point, but it was really interesting, and in fact we chatted for at least another hour. A lot of what we talked about was both relevant and interesting, covering the social responsibilities of game developers, how far violence should be allowed to go, what our favourite games are and what, what makes good AI, and a bunch of other topics that are always relevant.

Pity you guys won�t get to hear that conversation.

As a final comment I�d like to again say thank you to John and Dylan for allowing us to visit them. We had a great time there and we really enjoyed the atmosphere, as well as the game. We look forward to hearing more from Pandemic, as they�ve clearly got the goods to be around for a long time.

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